Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

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Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby teknoblade » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:35 pm

The shadowdancer and their dreaded Ninja Assasin like “hide in plain sight” ability has always seemed to be a thorn in the side of most dms and adventure writers as it isn’t a typical application of the Stealth skill. In Pathfinder this is augmented by the inclusion of “It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging” in the write-up. The important thing to remember is that the PC is treated as an invisible attacker against any enemy that failed the Perception check to notice him and that Stealth is part of a move action. The PC “can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty.” Please also note that less than is not the same as equal too.

This said everything is pretty straight forward unless you have other feats to make it even more complicated like “Spring Attack” and/or “Cleave”. Shadowdancer’s specializing in ranged attacks are even simpler are they use the sniping guidelines but don’t incur the -20 penalty on checks as “obscured location” is more of a supernatural nature than a physical one.

The important thing to take from this is that they need to have a move action left to hide again. This wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t for nasty little things like sneak attack and poisons.

REFERENCES…
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Stealth
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16. If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you’re moving. If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Chapter 5).

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Needles » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:50 pm

teknoblade wrote: It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.



You posted it yourself in the stealth rules.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby teknoblade » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:28 pm

That hasnt changed from 3.5 and its run the exact same way...
"It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. "

Example...
Shadowdancer, Moves into position and waits for the target to pass. He can move at half spped or less then full (-5 penalty). The normal Stealth rules would allow him to do this with cover and/or concealment, but this is trumpted with the "Hide in Plain Sight" ability. Once he attacks, runs, or charges he ends his Stealth automatically. The target is still flat footed as it was unaware of his attacks and/or location. Now everyone within 30 ft automatically sees him.

If he attacked the same round he moved into position he is done. If he waits he can use his Attack Action from within Stealth, which ends its, and then use Stealth again as part of a Move Action.

Now if he waits or utilizes the Spring attack feat that allows him to move before and after an attack. He can take one attack or two, on separate targets, with the Cleave feat and then use Stealth again as part of his Move Action.

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Dwraith » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:50 pm

Jose is right on this Ed. The sentence is stating that while your Attacking (Making an attack, Using an attack action, casting an offensive spell and so on...), Running (which is it's own action), or charging (because charging is a full round action). While your attacking (using a Standard action to take an attack or something other offensive) you can't stealth, It required you to do it as part of a Move action or Move. Moving is not Attacking. A whole players round is not attacking.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Needles » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm

I think you guys are backing what I was saying, you appear after you attack. You can stealth again at your normal stealth as a move action after the attack. here is an example of how it is used from darklord and others on the Paizo.com boards. I don't think you appeared after you attacked in the rules for 3.5.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... e=search#0
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Dwraith » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:44 pm

you always appeared when you attack, yet all your attacks counts for sneak attack if your opponent was flat-footed to your attack. Only ways around that are like Greater Invis or Dust of Invis. And of coarse if he has a move, he can re-stealth with that movement.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby MorganWolf » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:06 am

Mario is correct ED.

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby teknoblade » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:44 am

Just remember that whether it be a regular move or with feats like "spring attack" if he whats to utilize Stealth as part of the movement he is under the restrictions for movement. This is also coountered by feats like Blind Fighting, at least now that the feat is so much mroe powerful.

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Needles » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:55 pm

At least, how I understand it, you used to not appear when you hid in plain sight in 3E. You took a minus to your hide when you attacked then as a move action you made another hide check to disappear.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby MorganWolf » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:25 pm

you always appeared after attacking; what the issue is that in "spring attack" you move after the attack thereby hiding in the middle of the feat action again. but attacking you always appear from stealth/hide unless sniping.

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Dwraith » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:37 pm

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at
least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged
attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take
a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your
obscured location.


Sniping is a separate option in Stealth. As you see above, it works for ranged attacks and not melee.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Needles » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:53 pm

MorganWolf wrote:you always appeared after attacking; what the issue is that in "spring attack" you move after the attack thereby hiding in the middle of the feat action again. but attacking you always appear from stealth/hide unless sniping.


My point is, even with spring attack you still appear, whether you hit or miss. You don't have to read the whole thread that I gave you to read, but even the first page, if I remember right, has those questions in it.

This is what the guy says about hide in plain sight and spring attack:

"With HiPS and Spring Attack you can move/Stealth, attack dropping Stealth, and move away/Stealth."

And this is from Darklord who has the best arguments as to why he says what he believes is right.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby teknoblade » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:06 pm

I agree, there is no way to avoid coming into view of a foe, the advantage you get with spring attack is that you get a move before and after. Even with the feat they get a -5 if moving more then half speed and have to move less then their normal speed.

If you read the posts above they all say the exact same thing.

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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Dwraith » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:16 am

then again, your no longer in Stealth, but your opponent is still flat-footed to you, and if your able to find a means to get a condition where you could use stealth, then that guys is going to be shitting him self wondering where you pop out next.
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Re: Hide in Plain Sight and Stealth

Postby Needles » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:20 pm

You all made some good points. The downside is the opponent can ready to hit you. the disadvantage to this is the hiding in plain site character doesn't have to attack and the creature wastes his turn. Woe to the Hips character that attacks anyway and gets hit. After all, the creature opposing the hips character will be able to see you.

I'm still wondering if I made the good choice of not going two levels in shadowdancer. I skip hips, evasion, darkvision, and uncany dodge for getting vital strike, improved will (which has saved me a lot, will saves are my weakness) and specialization. My fort save and my will save would be worse than it is now and they are not that great.
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