Flame Wars: 4th Edition

The shiny new D&D living campaign from WoTC

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:21 am

Heh, the reason why the grapple rules are so complex is because it reminds you why it sucks so much to get stuck in one of those things and since you can't break out because no one except a Monk is that good you die a slow horrible, pinned death at the hands of some crazy monster.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Peewee » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:00 pm

Ozymandius wrote:Heh, the reason why the grapple rules are so complex is because it reminds you why it sucks so much to get stuck in one of those things and since you can't break out because no one except a Monk is that good you die a slow horrible, pinned death at the hands of some crazy monster.



Which so very unheroic, the rules were such that a evil GM could design it where the characters had once chace to live... freedome of movement.

and once that spell (or ring) is in the campaign. the rule is moot...

also it slowed down the game..

the new rules are 1000000000x better
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby thetrickygnome » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:09 pm

I mean 25 point buy? Wow, now that is old school. But other than that it looks solid.


As long as it's fun I don't this to be a big concern.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Dwraith » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:46 am

down for that. I do miss the 3.5 style of play. Something more balanced but also has an old feel would be great...
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:30 am

Hey Peter, I totally disagree with your assessment of the 3.5 grapple as we just experienced the HELL out of it this Sunday.

We also fought an insect creature that grabbed me and tried to swim away with my character in the harbor. That guy was swimming away with me at 60 feet a round and I could beat the grapple but I needed high numbers to do it so it came down to either a "Benign Transposition" or a "Dimension Hop" and they got me out and we killed the creature. Another example of the power of a grapple (which we use to our advantage all the time).

People were caught by a Life-Leech Otiyugh and it started grappling people and swallowing them. First Rob went in, then David, then Chuck, then Josh. Each of them fighting the massive creature in an epic, but futile struggle to prolong their miserable lives. And of course...avoiding incoming friendly arrow fire all at the same time.

That was one of the most tension packed, and witty comments, that were every passed back and forth over a combat. People were trying to engage the Life-Leech, two Snerflings and a druggie plant (those bitches hurt). It was great watching this "watcher-in-the-water" type creature layeth the smack down on the party and seeing people trying to come up with ways to free them: "Dimension Hop," "Grease," and Slow were among the options used. But it came down to damage and resistances and everyone made it out alive from that combat with yet another reminder of why grapple is so bad...
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Peewee » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:43 am

Ozymandius wrote:Hey Peter, I totally disagree with your assessment of the 3.5 grapple as we just experienced the HELL out of it this Sunday.

We also fought an insect creature that grabbed me and tried to swim away with my character in the harbor. That guy was swimming away with me at 60 feet a round and I could beat the grapple but I needed high numbers to do it so it came down to either a "Benign Transposition" or a "Dimension Hop" and they got me out and we killed the creature. Another example of the power of a grapple (which we use to our advantage all the time).

People were caught by a Life-Leech Otiyugh and it started grappling people and swallowing them. First Rob went in, then David, then Chuck, then Josh. Each of them fighting the massive creature in an epic, but futile struggle to prolong their miserable lives. And of course...avoiding incoming friendly arrow fire all at the same time.

That was one of the most tension packed, and witty comments, that were every passed back and forth over a combat. People were trying to engage the Life-Leech, two Snerflings and a druggie plant (those bitches hurt). It was great watching this "watcher-in-the-water" type creature layeth the smack down on the party and seeing people trying to come up with ways to free them: "Dimension Hop," "Grease," and Slow were among the options used. But it came down to damage and resistances and everyone made it out alive from that combat with yet another reminder of why grapple is so bad...


Yes and with the new grapple rules... all you need is one roll = better and faster for me.
Peter B
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"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”
- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:39 am

One roll is not EPIC.

One roll is Anti-Epic.

And Grapple is still one roll in 3.5 = One roll to Grapple.
Next Round = One roll to maintain Grapple
Third Round = One roll to pin.
Fourth Round = One roll to snap their neck.

You got four chances to live (or more if you can stop them in rounds 2-4) and when you don't man the rest of the party just sits back and watches (laughing at you not with you) or they bum rush the creature to save you.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby grey » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:57 pm

What the cleric didn't jump in the creature and cast blade barrier?
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:40 pm

Ozymandius wrote:One roll is not EPIC.

One roll is Anti-Epic.

And Grapple is still one roll in 3.5 = One roll to Grapple.
Next Round = One roll to maintain Grapple
Third Round = One roll to pin.
Fourth Round = One roll to snap their neck.

You got four chances to live (or more if you can stop them in rounds 2-4) and when you don't man the rest of the party just sits back and watches (laughing at you not with you) or they bum rush the creature to save you.


Pathfinder I think the biggest change is you can cast a spell in a grapple. concentration 15+spell level. You can also attack with anything that does not require 2 hands at -2.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby thetrickygnome » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:10 am

Pathfinder I think the biggest change is you can cast a spell in a grapple. concentration 15+spell level. You can also attack with anything that does not require 2 hands at -2.


This is actually a pretty good change in my opinion. Being grappled by a monster with hideous strength
and size advantage was so ridiculous. If you did not have help from your allies or a gimmick, you were
essentially dead. I mean, what the hell are you gonna do against a creature when it's grapple check is
like +25 or +30 against you?

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:37 am

thetrickygnome wrote:
Pathfinder I think the biggest change is you can cast a spell in a grapple. concentration 15+spell level. You can also attack with anything that does not require 2 hands at -2.


This is actually a pretty good change in my opinion. Being grappled by a monster with hideous strength
and size advantage was so ridiculous. If you did not have help from your allies or a gimmick, you were
essentially dead. I mean, what the hell are you gonna do against a creature when it's grapple check is
like +25 or +30 against you?



Pray. Or hope that your buddies are smart enough to save you.

Every time a grapple shows up in the homegame people's faces go white...

Literally.

The last session we had four people in a grapple...and they were losing.

Rob luckily was the first one grabbed and had acid resistance so he only got crushing damage, Charlie ran in to Dimension Hop Rob out and got caught, Coldstone was also captured by it as was Josh. Richard, Ramon, Matt and I looked at each other and I believe Greg said something like, "At least it can't grab anyone else..."

We began to pummel it with damage and we took it down. When it comes to these situations our tactics are forced to change to the situation and we handled it well. We've had several grapple situations and I think we've only had one fatal one (the stupid ass plant). The rest were exciting...except for those in the grapples. I mean people will come up with all kinds of suggestions and answers.

Besides, size should play a factor. If I'm only medium and a large creature wants to own up on me it's technically got 15 cubic feet of mass more than me. So naturally it should be better at this stuff, which is where Escape Artist (GOD BLESS THAT SKILL) is so awesome. I can be on a level playing field with these creatures AND it also works on being tied up or other similar situations.

Skills people...learn to use them.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:28 am

thetrickygnome wrote:
Pathfinder I think the biggest change is you can cast a spell in a grapple. concentration 15+spell level. You can also attack with anything that does not require 2 hands at -2.


This is actually a pretty good change in my opinion. Being grappled by a monster with hideous strength
and size advantage was so ridiculous. If you did not have help from your allies or a gimmick, you were
essentially dead. I mean, what the hell are you gonna do against a creature when it's grapple check is
like +25 or +30 against you?


I really don't have a problem with the pathfinder rule.Grappling is still a good tactic and still a strong tactic it but it is not the ultimate tactic like in 3.5. If you win a grapple the next round you get a +5 advantage to your roll. You can still pin and that is basically what 3.5 grapple is. Instead of 1 round it takes 2. It opens up a lot of possibilities in the first round with the rule change which is fun. Get grappled and put up fire shield next round. You maybe pinned following round but now at least you are dishing damage. It is way better then the weak sauce 4.0 grapple.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:30 am

Ozymandius wrote:
thetrickygnome wrote:
Pathfinder I think the biggest change is you can cast a spell in a grapple. concentration 15+spell level. You can also attack with anything that does not require 2 hands at -2.


This is actually a pretty good change in my opinion. Being grappled by a monster with hideous strength
and size advantage was so ridiculous. If you did not have help from your allies or a gimmick, you were
essentially dead. I mean, what the hell are you gonna do against a creature when it's grapple check is
like +25 or +30 against you?



Pray. Or hope that your buddies are smart enough to save you.

Every time a grapple shows up in the homegame people's faces go white...

Literally.

The last session we had four people in a grapple...and they were losing.

Rob luckily was the first one grabbed and had acid resistance so he only got crushing damage, Charlie ran in to Dimension Hop Rob out and got caught, Coldstone was also captured by it as was Josh. Richard, Ramon, Matt and I looked at each other and I believe Greg said something like, "At least it can't grab anyone else..."

We began to pummel it with damage and we took it down. When it comes to these situations our tactics are forced to change to the situation and we handled it well. We've had several grapple situations and I think we've only had one fatal one (the stupid ass plant). The rest were exciting...except for those in the grapples. I mean people will come up with all kinds of suggestions and answers.

Besides, size should play a factor. If I'm only medium and a large creature wants to own up on me it's technically got 15 cubic feet of mass more than me. So naturally it should be better at this stuff, which is where Escape Artist (GOD BLESS THAT SKILL) is so awesome. I can be on a level playing field with these creatures AND it also works on being tied up or other similar situations.

Skills people...learn to use them.


Greg has his own version of grapple and it is way worse then 3.5 grapple.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:16 am

Dude Richard that is SO true.

But at least he doesn't use it gratuitously on us.

Case-in-Point: The leopard men could have grappled the hell out of us but Greg chose not to do it. Mainly because if he grappled our tanks (Chuck and Dave and Josh) then I would be free to destroy them with my arrows (they would have been flat-footed with no Deflect Arrows).

Other times he does it because he thinks the person who fucked up deserves to die.

Case-in-Point: Chuck jumped over that 5ft stream and then was beat to sh*t by the paraelemental oozes.

What I can't wait to see is when Matt goes shapeshifter and then grapples the hell out of Greg. You'll see the rules come back to bite him in the ass on Movement in a Grapple and attacks.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:17 am

Dude, now that I think about it the only reason his monsters are so crazy is because Matt or myself aren't there keeping him in check when he writes them.

The only reason his Blackmoor junk was crazy, but not insane crazy was because one of us was either checking his numbers or designing them ourselves.

Crazy.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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