Flame Wars: 4th Edition

The shiny new D&D living campaign from WoTC

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:51 pm

Needles wrote:Wow! You sure have a negative aspect for this game. I have been playing in a home campaign on Wednesday nights and have been having fun with it. It is fourth edition night on Wednesday evening. We are changing it to fourth edition nights on Thursday evenings after Christmas. I have been having fun playing fourth ed, but hey, you can't please everybody. :D


A good home game could probably fix some of the failings...I glad you like it but I find it lacking to 3.5 in almost every aspect. :)

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:18 pm

Amen Brother we have another convert to the righteous cause of the OGL document! Heh, what you are seeing is exactly the same thing that happened in World of Warcraft.

Congratulations to WotC for tanking overall quality of a product for a wider playerbase!
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:15 am

3.0 and 3.5 are subpar garbage compared to 4.0.

See, I too can speak in absolutes and it doesn't make it any less of a presumptuous fallacy of fact then when you do it.

One of the fundamental aspects of any good game is balance amongst the players. It's why games like Settlers of Catan and Puerto Rico are such great games, everyone is in it until the end and everyone has a chance to win or kick ass. A game where 2-3 classes dominate the spectrum of options and power is an exercise in ignorant mental masturbation that you're free to keep to yourself if you so desire it.

Yes 4.0 is different, if it wasn't then what would be the point of even having a new edition? Try to expand the horizons of your security blanket for just a minute Linus, and realize that perhaps something different is not automatically something bad. I love what WOTC has done with the new D&D: new races; new combat system, new complex customization for every class, a new take on alignment, magic items, the seeming difficulty in cracking things out, etc. I have been playing D&D for over 20 years, and for the first time in a long time, the flavor of the game feels new and refreshing to me, not just the same old crap rehashed and redone. I'm really enjoying 4.0.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:45 am

4.0 can be summed up in one word "Chainmail."

I like a good tactical combat as much as the next guy but D&D was supposed to have a roleplaying element to it. If I just wanted to bitch-slap a couple of monsters around for kicks I would have gone to Undermountain, the ultimate dungeon of dungeons and guess what else I would find while down in the depths? Opportunities for roleplaying in a dungeon filled with nothing but insane monsters.

Roleplaying you say?

Of course, because you can inject roleplaying into any episode, it's like a poison and once you've introduced the players to it they will continue to spread it around. That's what WotC realized as they saw the comments and writing on the 4.0 forum, that's why the Adventure Companies and Guild rules are coming out so fast right now, they need to find a way to capture that teetering block of players who want to step 4.0 back to the level of 3.5 through comeraderie.

It's an important piece of the World-of-Warcraft paradigm, but most importantly of all WotC said there were no rules associated with it except for some minor points which don't effect the game hardly. You are allowed free reign in the one place that players always take advantage of regardles of the system, the meta-game. And in the end we know the meta-game isn't always taken into account by the authors so it is discarded and forgotten.

There are less people playing 4.0 then there were 3.5 and they all voice similar reservations about the system, and more likely than not you'll find that they have played in 3.0 and/or 3.5 and find the 4.0 system a little too structured for themselves.

Case in point, above us Richard complained about losing his Warhorse to an "update" which balances the game. Jesus, if your game can't handle a simple creature like that you know you are in a bad place.

What I like is the fact that people are locked into one weapon when I remember that we had a weapon for every situation in 3.5: Adamantine Greataxe, Cold Iron Dagger, Silver Longsword, Thinaum Rapier, Holy Water filled Greatswords, etc. We even had a multitude of geat and expendables that allowed for the rise of Gerry, the best damn cook ever! Rob's character proved you didn't have to know anything and you could be just as effective, and fun to roleplay, if you had a Spellcraft and Use Magic Device skill and lots of money to burn. It was his free thinking ideas that got us through so many situations and WIN in impossible ones such as the castle made out of Anti-Magic (suck it Mr. Rakshasa Acid Fog has no SR).

What 4.0 has removed from the game was the MacGyver Factor. No longer can you use what were once conventional spells, powers, items, etc. and change their purpose to suit another more interesting one.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby lasombra1380 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:46 pm

There are lots of points to cover, but I'll try to be short. I really like 4e. I like it b/c, with few exceptions combat moves very fast, the classes are interesting (though I decry the continual downgrading of wizards for edition to edition, but eh...), and I like the cosmology they reworked. D&D actually has the feel of a world on its own, as opposed to be tied to Greyhawk, FR or Dragonlance. That being said, system has flaws. I wont belabor whats already been said. However one thing I hear repeatedly is the lack of options... well give it time I say. 3rd had almost ten years and and a .5 edition to add to the mad variety. As for the other comment I always seem to get, a lack of roleplaying... I know Peewee, The Stat Monkey God, has said it, and Ive heard others say that you can inject roleplaying into anything. Hell at GenCon last year I ran into a bunch of people rping with Monopoly. But D&D has always been hack n slash and they know. Look at their taglines, Kill more monsters-get more loot, etc. But its all about how your group wants to play.

Ok so, I didnt keep it short, but... there ya go.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Lerch » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:45 pm

Thanos wrote:
I am pretty much done with 4.0. When they banned my warhorse from the campaign that was the last straw. I just can't keep positive when playing the game and I understand how negativity detracts from the game when others like it.


Don't worry your warhorse will be back....I predict that you two will "share" actions. One standard, move, and minor amongst the two of you.... essentially it will be a transport system...not a warhorse (that is unless you want the warhorse to attack for you).

Just a guess though....

As for me....I can't suspend my disbelief that much. I don't play 4th unless a friend needs me to watch his back at a table...I don't judge it anymore and won't. Right now it's not fun for me. Too many whiners out there for me to stomach....so I'm taking some time off....not even going to winter fantasy...DDXP or whatever Hasbro is calling it now.

For a guy that can rant about Drow silent language for three days Ramon...keep enjoying the game and all of its great foibles.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby thetrickygnome » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:18 pm

Wow. I don't even have the words to adequately describe how I feel about your post Ramon
except to say that very little of it is positive. I've said it before but I guess repetition is in
order - do not play a game you hate. Do not play a game you think sucks, especially if it
means sitting at a table with people who like it ( and I am not saying that I like it or dislike
it just for the record ). Stereotyping people who like 4.0 like this is...well...you know what,
why bother even writing it here.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Lerch » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 pm

I mostly haven't been playing because the people around here are idiots. Complaining that 4th edition is "too hard" and "I'm dying all the time".

But the thing that really and I mean REALLY annoyed me, was the module quality. Now mind you 4th edition was coming out right on the tail end on when the three (THREE) of us in Ohio had to write, edit, and produce 6 rounds of modules to a certain level of expectation of quality for LG. For a limited audience....

Then I see the first 4 - 6 modules that come out (the ones that were offered at Origins) and shudder. And it (to my knowledge hasn't gotten any better....) Now I've heard of a new acronym DME...does this stand for Dungeon Master Empowerment? To cover for the horrendous deadlines and lack of story for a campaign that has changed so much. I was sooo disappointed with the modules...and the gaping holes in logic and story...like Ramon or someone I know mentioned several combats strung together with some lines of text...and treasure bundles at the end.

If you haven't noticed...There are already openings for administrators. Different system, same problems. I wonder if they will get volunteers....(some of the openings are in Europe) and one opening is the EVENT manager in the SOUTHEAST. Sean Molley is the POC for that one.

I've got my name in the back of the PHB and PHB2 as a playtester, and I was hoping that what we said about what they were doing to the game would change some of the stuff they were doing to it....But obviously some things are written in stone. (and then errata'd three days later). :-/

I guess I feel disenfranchised by the whole experience. Having invested so much time and then getting handed 4th edition for my "service." (At least that's what it feels like to me). I would have written or volunteered, but not with the way things are set up monster vs PC... and I would be hesitant to play any interactive approved by WOTC. given their track record with modules. (since this is a hot topic on the list right now).

my 2cents.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:19 pm

HOW 'BOUT THEM MODULES?

Oh wait, you need anti-depressants just to DM them...

I almost cried when I ran my first few 4.0 modules, I thought to myself, "Hey, what the hell is this?" I thought Sean Molley was going to bring in the big guns and hopefully make the game fun even though the mechanics seems to have been written for the FETUS to NEWBORN age-group. Sean's trying but man it's like trying to cross the Atlantic in a ship called the Titantic; it's not a good situation is what I'm trying to say.

I thought that "The Night I Woke The Dead," would have been fun as hell.

I WAS WRONG!

I thought it would be some kind of Night/Dawn/Day/Land/Island of the Dead kind of story. Nope, it wasn't even close. I even thought it could have been a funny parody of Chris Reed's undead PoU arc. Nope, it wasn't even close. I almost thought it would have been some kind of life and dead hack n' slash fight for survival in a church against your DM (i.e. Cheating Ramon with Zombies that can make 90 degree turns and smash though wood barriers and force paladin's to scream to their wizard's, "SHOOT ME WITH THE FIREBALL, GET THEM OFF NOW!). Nope, it wasn't even close.

What happened, it looks like the Living System got a serious case of BRAIN DRAIN for authors.

Living Greyhawk wasn't this bad, from time to time it had some "questionable" plot in modules but it was fun as hell to play because we made fun of it and then the next module we played was "O.K." But in LFR, damn man, it's like a bad syndicated TV Show and the episodes aren't stopping...

But hey, I mean at least 4.0 has its good points, the artwork is cool...
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Needles » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:09 pm

You know, LG started this way, but the modules goodies were much worse. No magic items, maybe a +1 dagger stuck in there, but that was all I saw. Eventually, the quality of the modules started to pick up and they got to where they were last year. I imagine if enough people complain the modules will pick up in quality and story.

I am playing two 4E modules and I am enjoying them. I've gone up to play a module here and there farther away such as northern Broward and enjoyed my time. I don't have a high playing level for 4E. I'm not expecting much, just three and a half hours of play time, and rolling some dice.

It is true that the modules are not much. If it weren't for those two other modules I am playing I don't think LFR would be impressive. I have a low bar set for 4E and I am having fun with it. :D
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:22 am

Uh yeah, but at least we had fun fighting the undead and orcish legions of the first PoU year.

And remember that in LG magical proliferation (i.e. Items) were rampant. I ran around for more than a year with just a masterwork crossbow, masterwork quarterstaff and a +1 silver dagger until I got my +1 spellstoring longsword. But I was working it with magical armors, shields, scrolls, "unique" items, favors that I could use and special material weapons.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:47 pm

Ed is referring to early LG PJ, where you played 5 modules and the best thing you saw was some masterwork weapon of your choice, maybe a silver holy symbol, and if you were really lucky, 10 bolts +1. I remember those days of wondering, man when will the magic begin. Remember this was in the heyday of LC and that campaign was pretty magic item heavy, so I think LG was trying to do the opposite at the time...
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:49 pm

But the difference here Rene is that in AD&D and 3.0/3.5 the magical items weren't ridiculously priced and nerfed into oblivion as they are in 4.0's version.

You can barely own multiple weapons in 4.0 because they cost too much whereas in the other versions you had a multitude of +1/+2 specialty weapons and one or two primary +4/+5 types for when you absolutely, positively had to kill it.

LC had to have ridiculous magic because it was Forgotten Realms and if you look at the setting they built they explained it pretty well that magic was the norm and it was constantly pervasive across the continent. But in this newer version of Forgotten Realms you get a watered down magical landscape where many major players are either dead (Halaster), missing (Elminster) or dumbed down (Red Wizards of Thay).

The problem isn't actually so much the system (there are some nice things) but the reduction of the more complex aspects of the game didn't help. If you wanted to do a thinking man's game without the stupid word puzzles you could do that in 2.0/3.0/3.5 and you could use the mechanics to justify it. Here with 4.0 its harder because there is a lack of spells or mechanics or they no longer function as previous editions held them.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Needles » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:30 pm

Ozymandius wrote:But the difference here Rene is that in AD&D and 3.0/3.5 the magical items weren't ridiculously priced and nerfed into oblivion as they are in 4.0's version.

What, 360 gp for a +1 item is too much for you, 1800 for a +2 Item is far fetched, for the good ole' days of 3.x it is 2000 plus for a +1 and 8000 plus for a +2. Oblivion, you gotta be kidding me.

Ozymandius wrote:You can barely own multiple weapons in 4.0 because they cost too much whereas in the other versions you had a multitude of +1/+2 specialty weapons and one or two primary +4/+5 types for when you absolutely, positively had to kill it.

My fifth level wizard got his +2 staff of whatever at third level, +2 amulet of pro at second level, and a +1 Bloodthread armor at first level. Besides that I have a Viper belt, two other items at +1 and some potions and rituals. There are plenty of goodies to own at lower levels. The system is set up so that a +4/+5 item doesn't fall into the hands of adventurers at lower levels. I don't know what system you played at. I never got a +4/+5 item in LG unless it was armor, and that was at 13th level. Never an offensive item, those items are too expensive. If you are reffering to LC, I never played that system. If you got a +4/+5 item at lower levels I'm impressed. That hasn't happened in Blackmoor. At least, in the mods I've played at I havn't had a +4/+5 item at hand at lower levels.

Ozymandius wrote:LC had to have ridiculous magic because it was Forgotten Realms and if you look at the setting they built they explained it pretty well that magic was the norm and it was constantly pervasive across the continent. But in this newer version of Forgotten Realms you get a watered down magical landscape where many major players are either dead (Halaster), missing (Elminster) or dumbed down (Red Wizards of Thay).

You have to understand the new version is very susceptible to adventure. There are plenty of ways to set up a mod. Reading the Players guide to forgotten realms there are countries ruled by Vampires, Rakshasas, and plenty of ruins to search from. There is a host of areas an adventure can start on. The whole book is set up for it. As for dumbed down, what I see is they took the old bad guys away and set up a whole new set up of bad guys to replace the old stories. The infamous spell plague is the reason to change all that.

Ozymandius wrote:The problem isn't actually so much the system (there are some nice things) but the reduction of the more complex aspects of the game didn't help. If you wanted to do a thinking man's game without the stupid word puzzles you could do that in 2.0/3.0/3.5 and you could use the mechanics to justify it. Here with 4.0 its harder because there is a lack of spells or mechanics or they no longer function as previous editions held them.

There you have to know the game. Memorize every spell, I didn't do that. Here in this game you have rituals to replace all the non violent spells. I agree there is not enough of them to have the dynamic of the old game. I believe they will get around to it.

From reading what you have said here you really havn't put enough time in the game. If all you are going to do is play LFR mods then you might have a problem with the system. The LFR system is not as complex as LG, LC, or Blackmoor. Therefore, you will miss out on the stories of the old 3.x systems. I play in various campaigns where there are more complex roleplaying situations, the story is much more compound, and the combat is just as tough. I guess that is why I can stand the LFR mods in comparison to LG mods.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:13 pm

1,000,000 Gp for a Holy Avenger is considered cheap in 4.0?

Look, if you're playing 4.0 for roleplaying then you are losing out on more than you bargained for because roleplaying IS NOT CONTINGENT ON THE MECHANICS OF A SYSTEM. You can roleplay anytime, anywhere, anyhow in any system we have ever participated in.

Game Mechanics are an exclusive trait of the Dungeons and Dragons system.

Roleplaying is not.

In previous editions you could make Game Mechanics a part of the Roleplaying because of the complexity of the rules.

For example, someone is going around committing murders and a pillar of the community is blamed for it. Turns out the bad guy is a Clone and when the two finally meet they go insane and try to kill each other. But because in 3.5 we had SPECIFIC spell descriptions over half a page in length knew exactly how the spell reacted to detect magic, spellcraft, knowledge aracana, dispel magic, etc. But now its just not there in 4.0, it just doesn't exist.

It's too much like World of Warcraft except on paper.

The only problem is at least WoW had on overarching plot for the players from region to region. And their version of playability was at least of a higher caliber than simply saying play the module again with a different character.
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