Flame Wars: 4th Edition

The shiny new D&D living campaign from WoTC

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Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:44 pm

Wow,

I just finished reading 27 pages of comments on the 4th Edition system and finally understand the problem that the same 12 people keep rehashing AND the top 15 things I learned while reading their arguments:

1. 3.5 IS NOT 4.0 (They Finally Agreed Around Pg. 7)
2. 3.75 IS LIKE 3.5 SO I'M NOT PLAYING IT! (General Agreement Pg. 5)
3. 4.0 IS/ISN'T LIKE WOW (Still Under Debate as of Pg. 27)
4. YOU CAN'T ROLEPLAY IN 3.5! (Debunked on Pg. 9 by Chris Tulac)
5. YOU CAN ROLEPLAY MORE IN 4.0 (Debunked on Pg. 9 by Chris Tulac in same post)
6. JESUS WOULD PISS ON 4.0 (Claimed by WarLeader98 on Pg. 12)
7. WARLEADER98 BANNED FROM FORUMS (Pg. 12)
8. WoTC IS IN IT FOR THE MONEY (General Agreement Pg. 16)
9. WHY ARE THERE SO MANY BOOKS? (General Question, Never Answered, Pg. 17)
10. AGREEMENT TO BUY AMERICAN RPG SYSTEMS (General Agreement, Pg. 19)
11. WoTC OWNED BY THE FRENCH (Discovered on Pg. 21)
12. GENERAL UPROAR BY THOSE WHO DIDN'T KNOW HASBRO WAS FRENCH (See Pg. 21)
13. SOMEONE SAID THEY HAD SEX WITH ANOTHER POSTERS MOTHER FOR 4E BOOKS (Lots of LoLs on Pg. 22)
14. ADMINISTRATORS REMOVE ABOVE PERSON FOR ONE MONTH (Pg. 22)
15. GARY GYGAX WAVES HIS BALLS AT GENGIS KHAN (Pg. 23)

The problem is they argue like we do on this board.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby thetrickygnome » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:49 pm

Except that they get banned and punished for posting their minds. We don't suffer that indignity here thankfully or else no one would be posting here.


The excessive restriction of freedom is wrong IMHO.
The excessive allowance of freedom and the abuse that it sometimes spawns is equally wrong IMHO.
A moderated... oh, did I use thw word moderated...practice of something in between both of these
extremes is how it should work.

People post there thoughts here all the time. It's the misguided belief that has plagued this forum in the
past that one can say any manner of horrible thing to someone else and just because it's a message board
that it should not matter that is what I will never agree with. But again, just my opinion & I do not really
partake of this forum as much as I used to.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:35 pm

thetrickygnome wrote:
But again, just my opinion & I do not really
partake of this forum as much as I used to.


So in other words, you don't give a f*ck about us anymore...


I see how it is...


C'mon Rene', take the troll bait!!! :]
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:54 am

TheWorldsGreatestWarrior wrote:
thetrickygnome wrote:
But again, just my opinion & I do not really
partake of this forum as much as I used to.


So in other words, you don't give a f*ck about us anymore...


I see how it is...


C'mon Rene', take the troll bait!!! :]


Just look at Rene H.'s Signature for more proof!
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:07 pm

Ramon you should never be allowed to write another "Pipes and Principles" interactive. We couldn't survive the fallout from all the collective bitching afterward.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:04 pm

I REALLY LIKE RETRAINING. I WISH THIS HAD ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE GAME. I ALSO LIKE THE STANDARD/MOVE/MINOR BREAKDOWN, OH AND ACTION POINTS!
DISCLAIMER: PLEASE DON'T TAKE WHAT I POST ON HERE TOO SERIOUSLY, BECAUSE I CERTAINLY DON'T! :D

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:50 pm

Lord Neden wrote:Greetings,

OMG the reason why these boards are no longer a "daily" stop for many of us is because we don't have much to look forward to in the form of D&D. When LG, LA, and LC were bumping, these boards were on FIRE. Look at the motivation of 4.0. I think everyone is just "going through the motions."

And to clarify something about my opinion about 4.0, Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami,, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, mentioned that some people dislike the fact that I state I dislike 4.0 and yet still play. My response to those people (assuming they care is):

Grow up! I dislike 4.0, that is known by all that ask me because I let them know it. That being said, the reason I am still playing is to GIVE IT A FAIR SHAKE. Not just once or twice because you really can't know if you like a game of this caliber by playing it only a couple times. I plan on playing at LEAST to 12th level. By that point, I can honestly say that I have given the game everything I can and done the full effort. If I don't like it still at that point, I will not be playing any more. Besides, I have invested WAY too much time and energy into this hobby to stop just because an edition came out that I have strong feelings against.

Now, all these supplements and Dragon Magazine excerpts are at least making 4.0 a little barable. I enjoy reading some of these articles and the fact that I can play a couple extra races intrigues me. I am hoping a supplement comes out that addresses many of my concerns. Those being:

1- Complete and utter disregard for commonly used skills like dancing, singing, crafting, professions, etc.
2- Unbalanced skill vs. DC distribution based entirely on adventure challenge instead of actual difficulty.
3- Boring spellcasters (they are boring because they are no longer "versitile" but more like cookiecutter magic users).
4- Roleplaying Flavor and Incredible Story- What happened to the story components of the game? Running an adventure for the sake of an adventure is boring, there is no vested interest or story in the new edition. They just came up with a bunch of rules and the "destruction" of all things. Its like Gehenna and White Wolf all over again.
5- Unbalanced Player vs Monster power levels (the powers and abilities that monsters get are WAY broken)
6- Monster Creation (Lets not even go here. Its so freaking wrong, it makes me sick)
7- Complete disregard for mechanics in modules (Yep, this is a HUGE problem. When you get a bunch of burnt out LG leaders to organize a new game system, they are going to be Burnt Out there too. Its evident in their complete lack of oversite for the module writing and statblock oversite. Also, their module schedule is all over the place... this lack of structure is in for a HUGE collapse unless new blood is pumped into those "volunteer positions")
8- Too much Balance is boring (Balance is a good thing upto a certain point. But when too much balance happens, everyone is the same. I don't live in China or Cuba because I don't want to live there, don't subject my fantasy world to socialism. Its a HUGE turn off).
9- Divine and Alignment- Yeah, they fucked this up HUGE. You get your powers from your god and from that point forward, you keep them regardless of what you do. The only requirement is that you stay within a certain alignment of your diety. So if I play an unaligned cleric, I can worship ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Not only that, but I am not bound by the tenants of my church because my tenants are based entirely on my own interpretation and I can justify anything I do with a Jyhad mentality. God will never take away my powers because he already gave them to me.
10- Wands, Staffs, Rods, etc.- Sorry I liked charged items, always have, always will. I think they screwed the pooch on this one.
11- Ritual Casting Feat- Ok.... who let the barbarian cast raise dead? Bring that guy out before the firing squad!
12- Mundane Equipment- NEED MORE! Innovation has been removed from the game in its entirety. That bothers me in more ways than you know and is likely the biggest problem that I have with this system.

That being said, things I like:

1- Race diversity (Whoot, they got something right! More Races and flexible backgrounds for these races)
2- Character Power Distribution (Yes they got something here right as well. I am a little on the fence on this issue actually. I can admit when I am wrong, the PCs power distribution is equitable. A ranger's skillset and weaknesses are balanced with a tanks strengths and weaknesses are balanced with a wizard's strengths and weaknesses. But I am still wary of the "too much balance" problem, we will see how this plays out).
3- Traps- Yep, I like what they have done with traps. Multiple successes SHOULD be something that traps require, not just flip of a switch and "Ping" its safe! Also, incorporating traps into encounters is something I am VERY fond of <cough cough Pipes and Princples>.
4- The Gnoll- Ok.. Keith Barker is brilliant. My respect for this man just jumped 3 categories after reading the Gnoll article in Dragon Magazine. Yum. He is about 2 knotches down from my favorite D&D writer Monte Cook.
5- Healing- Wow did I say that out loud? Alot of people disliked how healing transitioned from 3.5 to 4.0. I LOVE IT! I think healing surges are a brilliant idea! Limit the amount of healing a person can do AND TAKE, make it so that they can't fight and fight and fight forever! GREAT IDEA!
6- Extended Rests vs. Short Rests- Again brilliant and fair. I like this definition. What I don't like about it is the fact that they removed the need for the cleric to pray for his/her spells at a certain time every day. I liked this Muslim influenced decision from the origional D&D.
7- Daily, Encounter, Utility, and At-Will Powers. Ok... yes I said I hated this at the beginning. I SWORE UP AND DOWN AGAINST IT. Here it goes, I was wrong again. BLEH feels like eating stale Cheetohs. I now LIKE daily, encounter, utility, and at-will powers. I feel that this is an enriching component of the game and I am curious to see what happens as time progresses.
8- And last but certainly not LEAST, my FAVORITE CHANGE of 4.0- Multiclassing. Man they got this SO right, its not even funny! They NAILED this bitch.

On the Fence:
1- Hit Points- So far so good on them, but I am curious to see what the f*ck the developers were thinking when they gave some of these monsters the hitpoints they have and the daily powers that we have typically deal 20 to 30 points of damage (on average, obviously strikers do slightly more and tanks do slightly less). I haven't seen the damage dice go up.
2- Minions- I don't like them as a general rule. They are boring and really don't add a challange to the encounter so much as they do an annoyance. Give them more than 1hp please, that is just bleh.
3- Treasure and Magic Items- I am not sure how I feel about this yet. Daily powers for items aren't that big of a deal right now because they really don't do much to begin with.
4- Rituals- I thought at first I liked them. Then I experienced the "cost" of the rituals and I now am not so happy with them. I am seeing how much money we are making compared to how much it "costs" to have a ritual cast and I don't like it. Some rituals just take too damn long too. Its rediculous that a spell takes 10 minutes to cast to get an effect that doesn't last very long. Oh.. and WHERE ARE MY BUFFS? Rituals are perfect for buffs and I haven't seen much of anything except water walking and water breathing.
5- Feats- Ok.. they toned this sh*t down BIG TIME. In the quest for balance, they decided to narrow the flexibility of feats.
6- BAB vs. Defences- I don't REALLY like this much but I see what they are trying to do. They really infanticized this aspect of the game. I think it could have been done much better. Fighters and Strikers should be better at hitting things with a sword better than wizards. But if they have the same strength, they hit things the same? Yeah, don't like this aspect of the game much. But as I said, still on the fence.
7- Party balance- I don't think this exists as much as it used to. In 1st Edition, you NEEDED a little bit of everything. 2nd Edition, you needed certain people to do certain roles. 3rd Edition and 3.5 you needed a Social character, a Damage Dealing Tank, a healer, and someone that can control geography (this was the beginning of the blurring of roles that lead to 4.0's catastrophic blunder of everyone can do everything). Now in 4th edition, you need a Tank and a healer and damage dealers. Controlling Geography is no longer what it used to be... now you control people not geography. Slide here push there pull this... I don't want anything of mine pulled thank you. Give me back my Wall of Force. Defender, Striker, Controler, Healer (I call them this cause thats what they are)... its not really what a party needs in my opinion. Is it helpful? Yes. But is it necessary? No. Tank and healer is all thats necessary. The rest can be all strikers, all controllers, or whatever. The party works either way. Throw the tank in the middle and let the healer do the dirty from a distance. That is all thats necessary. Still on the fence.

So there you go. For those of you who say I am a hypocrite for playing a game I dislike, this post is for you. I can have a decenting opinion on something and still participate. I do so out of curiousity and respect for all the time that people put into the game. I also do so because I have invested a great deal of time into a game that I am not just willing to throw out the window overnight. My sence of values tells me not to. You don't like it still? Well, too bad. I hope this at least helps clarify why I do what I do.

Regards,

Ramon Guillen Jr.


I am pretty much done with 4.0. When they banned my warhorse from the campaign that was the last straw. I just can't keep positive when playing the game and I understand how negativity detracts from the game when others like it.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:57 pm

TheWorldsGreatestWarrior wrote:I REALLY LIKE RETRAINING. I WISH THIS HAD ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE GAME. I ALSO LIKE THE STANDARD/MOVE/MINOR BREAKDOWN, OH AND ACTION POINTS!


Rene it still costs 1g to retrain in the beginning then every time you retrain it costs double the amount in a manner of exponential costs until it costs 1000 platinum to retrain. I'm telling you man, ain't that a bitch!

J/K, but really dude, if WoW thought it was a good idea, it probably was...
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Needles » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:59 pm

They banned your warhorse Thanos, what happened there. Just because you can't afford a horse shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Xylona Ajani » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:55 pm

4.0 is a work in progress in my opinion. There is a lot of thing I do not like, but a lot of thing that needed to be changed from 3.5 that were just too broken. I have heard that this happens very often when new systems are created. Has time passes new things are allowed in the game, like classes & some things are removed because it does not work. I just made a Druid, I am a bit unease about it not having an animal companion, but that does not mean that it may be allow it later on. I am glad that I can play a Druid, a different concept of a Druid that I am used to, but still the class of a druid. Only time will tell. I enjoy getting together and finding out new powers that each character is capable of doing, but minimizing “the different interpretation of rules” I would not be against. I say give it a chance if you like to play D&D. :wink:

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:52 am

This didn't happen with the 3.0 change over.

Let me just say I miss the old "Haste" and leave it at that... And by the old "Haste" I mean the one with the side effects, and what happened to "system shock checks" and all those great, "Oh sh*t did that just happen," moments?

Without having played many of the previous systems the point of view offered by some is limited, I got to play 2.0/3.0/3.5/4.0 as well as d20/d20Modern/WitchHunter/StarWars/Shadowrun and they all had great points and bad points but unfortunately 4.0 is having too many points fall under "bad" and not enough under "good."

Oh and if you're looking for some fun "roleplaying" relief get Left 4 Dead for any system and play that game. Here's a great analogy as to what the game is like:

Image
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Dwraith » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:10 pm

Left 4 Dead is one if the best on-line multi i have played. Doesn't get old....
Eli Wallace, "Well this couldn't get much worse?"
Dr. Nicholas Rush, "I'm afraid thats a failure of imagination."
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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Ozymandius » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:52 am

Left 4 Dead is the best with its AI and insane zombie Versus mode, man that game should be at our next convention with System Link.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

Email: Finn_Durandall@Hotmail.com

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Thanos » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:16 pm

Needles wrote:They banned your warhorse Thanos, what happened there. Just because you can't afford a horse shouldn't be a problem.

They took warhorses out of the game...has nothing to do with not affording it I did buy one and had the feats to use it. I don't feel like redoing my character every other week cause they ban another thing when the game sucks. I find it funny they butchered DnD so the game could be balanced and everything equal, all they did was make the game boring and still the faq is getting bigger and bigger every month.

I can handle banning stuff if the game is robust enough. You can't ride horses now? WTF we should be flying around on dragons. That is how much 4.0 fails. You can't be a knight riding your warhorse anymore. AT least 3.5 you could get griffins and stuff.

4.0 is not DnD IMO. It is a glorified and boring miniature game with some RPG elements.

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Re: Flame Wars: 4th Edition

Postby Needles » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:32 pm

Wow! You sure have a negative aspect for this game. I have been playing in a home campaign on Wednesday nights and have been having fun with it. It is fourth edition night on Wednesday evening. We are changing it to fourth edition nights on Thursday evenings after Christmas. I have been having fun playing fourth ed, but hey, you can't please everybody. :D
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