My Lament

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Re: My Lament

Postby Highmoon » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:59 am

The Heretic wrote:The thread was begun to see if anyone else felt the same way in the vain hope that a group of reallly really good role players could be found for running the lfr mods with an emphasis on going outside the lines and actually role play.

As mentioned in my original reply to your post, I am interested in the idea, time and schedule permitting.

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Re: My Lament

Postby Ozymandius » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:22 am

OMG RAMON!

I lost my SEVEN PAGE POST RESPONSE TO THIS THREAD because of a TIME OUT!

You are a lucky man Mr. Perez, you almost suffered at the hands of one of the most experienced flame baiters on this board.

You live to post another day.

P.S.

Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, always takes it personal because that's the kind of guy he is. Even if I totally disagree with Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, about the "Awesomeness" of 4.0 remember this, I respect him for the work he does with conventions; hell I paid him $35 bucks for the summoning and then didn't go to any of the slots. I didn't even ask for my money back because I know how HARD it is to run one of these things; I've done it with him before and I'll work on more with him in the future. Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami,, you know I love you man and keep trucking but please...you need new sound effects dude.
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Re: My Lament

Postby thetrickygnome » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:49 am

I guess I should just bust out the popcorn and a tall glass of Coke and take a front seat to this thread
as it devolves into name calling and disrespect towards individual members of the gaming community.
It's a sad day in gaming when this kind of behavior is not only encouraged but celebrated. I'm not pointing
fingers but just making a general comment here - if you're the kind of person that thinks it's okay to
resort to this kind of juvenile bullshit then it's not hard to understand why gaming locally has taken such
a downward spiral. Now I understand why to a degree, aside from family responsibilities that have only
increased after the death of my father last week, why I game less and why the gaming crowd has shrunk
so much. If playing the insult game and trying to see which individuals can out flame one another on a
message board has become the calling of LivingCity instead of promoting gaming then I leave you all to
wallow in the mudhole of your own creation. After all, you can only be told to go f*ck yourself on a message
board only so many times before you realize how far the apple has fallen from the tree.

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Re: My Lament

Postby Highmoon » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:18 am

Ramon, let me address two different issues in your reply:

1- I am fully aware of your contributions to the local gaming community, and much like I feel about Morganwolf's, I am happy about the time and effort you guys put into it. I respect you for that 100%, regardless of whatever else may be happening. My post at no point was about this issue, but since you bring it up, I want it to be clear how I feel about it.

2- If you cannot understand that making an analogy between a game and a terrorist act is just inherently wrong, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. If you feel that it was a flame-bait, then so be it. If you care to start a new thread about D&D 4.0 to discuss the pros and cons of the new system without the analogy, then fantastic, and I'll join you there to talk.

Oh and PS, Monica's post still stands as the perfect representation of what I feel. I think she reflects adequately what others have voiced to me in the last couple of days too.

Who is Monica?

Back to the topic:
Now, as to the origins of the thread. Seeking a "roleplaying" group is one thing Fito, but explaining that the kind of roleplaying that is experienced at a convention put forward by others is substandard to your image of what it should be IS belittling AND the source of so much angst amongst the coordinators.

See, this is what I don't understand, why is Fito saying that this particular style of playing is not good FOR HIM is belittling anyone else who does like it? If his statement had been outwardly qualitative--I don't like this and all who do are morons--I would understand perfectly why the bruhaha, but his statement was inward--HE does not like this style of play.

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Re: My Lament

Postby Highmoon » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:27 pm

Lord Neden wrote:Often times its not what you say but how you say it. I, along with other coordinators, are taking what he said in the context of the weekend and the timing of his baiting post. By signing up to games and committing to something and then "not showing up," he compromised those that attended.

Given his post made no mention of this fact, I was replying to what's on the thread. It seems that yes, you do have a whole 'nother issue going here, but maybe that's one that can be addressed in a separate thread.

Lord Neden wrote:
Highmoon wrote:Who's Monica?

That question speaks volumes. Monica is Xylona on these boards

That's what I needed to know, thanks.

Lord Neden wrote:as for disrespect bleh these forums are filled with it.

And that's something I'd love to see change, but that's a totally different thread.

Lord Neden wrote:Daniel, thank you for agreeing to disagree.

No prob, it's the basis of our civilization.

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Re: My Lament

Postby The Heretic » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Alrighty, so lets see

I did a callout to see who wants to do some role playing.

So far Daniel has expressed interest.

The rest of it has been flame war.

So here we go

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING TOGETHER A GROUP FOR SOME ROLE PLAYING IN LFR, LET ME KNOW.

IF YOU THINK I INSULTED THE SUMMONING AND ALL WHO GAVE AN EFFORT TO WORK IT, I DIDNT.

IF YOU FUCKING HATE ME, I DONT WANT YOU TO GO AWAY MAD, I JUST WANT YOU TO GO AWAY.

thank you
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Re: My Lament

Postby Dwraith » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:46 pm

i add myself to the people that did sign up but didn't make it because something of an emergency came up right before the summoning and i had to make a choice of Real life problem or going to a game and not fixing the problem. It depressed like you all don't know that i couldn't go, most of all to play with Rene which i consider a great friend and to see all your ugly mugs. But when it came down to it, i had to make a responsible choice. I did call Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, which at times he doesn't always pick up and still waiting on a call back from him to this day.

As for looking to get a group going for Role playing Feto, i am down. I have a Drow rogue and a Wizards that is able to play. As for my Dragonborn cleric, i will now only play if i can play with Rene at the same table. Our characters are built for role playing with each other.

Also Ramon, two things...
First, We know how much you hate this systems, and as much as i love you bro, i am getting really tired at almost every moment you bitching about it. If its not your cup of tea, then stop playing and let people enjoy them self. Just because you simple text is confusing doesn't mean that you have to completely halt a game on what a judge can make a quick ruling and move on. That's why they are called Judges...

Second, I need to get in touch with your brother due in fact that i am painting a model for him and don't have a number, and you don't seem to be answering yours...

Now i hope this inferno that has been started dies down because its just a waste of time.

that's my two cents and i am sticking to it...
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Re: My Lament

Postby Ozymandius » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:06 am

Because you simple text is confusing doesn't mean that you have to completely halt a game on what a judge can make a quick ruling and move on.


Well Mario you confused the hell out of me with that one.
- Philip Slama

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Re: My Lament

Postby Peewee » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:27 am

Lord Neden wrote:Greetings,

Ok.. I will post on this since I haven't posted in a long time.....


Ramon,

I read your post, in the entire post you have not proved anything that restrics role-playing... you never played a fighter type in LG.. guess what, in 3.5 you did the same 4 things over and over if you were a fighter.

Yes 4.0 is not the best of games, but thats no reasion to stop ROLEPLAYING... How is it, that in my home game, we have some of the best roleplaying experances I have seen in some time, using the 4e system. And for the first time in a long time I see players not worrying about the mechantics, but about the CHARACTER.

You, like others, are mad because power gaming is so limited.. welcome to 1e D&D my friend... well unless you were a mage or cleric... play a rouge or fighter in 1e or 2e... you have NO options.. at all. Unless you used 2e Player's Option rules.
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Re: My Lament

Postby thetrickygnome » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:23 pm

You, like others, are mad because power gaming is so limited.. welcome to 1e D&D my friend... well unless you were a mage or cleric... play a rouge or fighter in 1e or 2e... you have NO options.. at all. Unless you used 2e Player's Option rules.


I'm not gonna comment on everything that Ramon said except this and one other thing. I hate to say it
but our resident little Napolean here is right IMHO. I used to sit at tables with you Ramon and you would
power game the holy hell out of every mod that we came across. It was first the volleys of never ending
mod breaking divinations, then the gazillion buffs, then the massive amount of magic items, then using
your familiar to cast spells and use magic items ( that dispel magic Arcanis thing that REALLY drove the
DM nuts and was eventually banned or restricted because of you is an example. ) 4.0 is not a perfect
system and it's flaws are not hard to see. However, I have to admit that I like the fact that the bad guys
versus the PCs is a more level playign field and that the power gaming aspect of it has been limited by
the simplicity of the rules and game mechanics. Now every class is important and almost entirely
balanced with each other - no more high level wizards, clerics, or druids dominating the tables. I think
part of your aversion to 4.o Ramon is that it is not as malleable to your whims as 3.5. This is not me
trying to insult you Ramon but simply an opinion based on observation.

As far as the argument of whether 4.0 sucks or not, I think it is good enough to play and enjoy but alot
depends on your DM and who you play with at the table. So while I understand why you might feel as you
do Ramon about 4.0, I cannot agree with everything you said and I am glad that 4.0 put the clamp on
alot of power gaming. The bad guys are stronger than ever, the PC are required to have much sharper
teamwork skills than before, and some of the battles in the mods are pretty fierce. I still like 3.5 more
than 4.0 but 3.5 IMHO suffered from the "too big for it's britches" syndrome.

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Re: My Lament

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:22 pm

And therein lies the point that both Ramon and myself have been trying to make to this thread. It is not that 4.0 sucks, or is in someway inferior to the previous systems, but instead it has "limited" character abilities and choices that were a major factor in roleplaying.

What you describe as "Power-Gaming" from the 3.5 system can still be wrought in 4.0 however you must be a little more observant when it occurs. Moreover with the implementation of a "Power Tree" characters have been limited to a linear selection of abilities and have little to distinguish themself from others who choose the same path; their only option is roleplaying.

When you attack Ramon for powergaming in the 3.5 system and claiming he knows nothing of roleplaying that is a major misteak. Ramon, and others, used their insight and knowledge of the system to build characters that were instrumental pieces of a regional story arc. Their characters are known far and wide for their ability to reduce a module to its basic components, but they are also known for their ability to provide a fun roleplaying experience for anyone at their table.

You could sit with Ramon at any table and know he had your back on the mechanics side and also know that he was going to roleplay the hell out of his character and he did so each time.

The problem, and this is my opinion only I do not speak for Ramon, I believe is that 4.0 took all of the options we previously had in 3.5 to "customize" our characters through abilities, feats, skills and classes and distilled all of that into these "Power Trees."

Many of you have played World of Warcraft and regarless of what you do people know you by your talent tree and not your social skills. They always ask, "Ret Pally, Disc Priest, Cmbt Rog, Aflct Lock, etc." and based on what you tell them they already know your capabilities.

The enjoyment of 3.5 was in the unpredictability of characters. Both Ralf and I played magical spellcasters and began in the Wizard class. Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, went in one direction while I went in another and when we played at tables you faced the following dilemma:

Do I play with the fifteenth level Wizard who is able to destroy targets with a single shot and inflict massive damage with ranged no-save touch attacks or do I go with the fifteenth level Wizard who relies on his magical item arsenal and ability to control the battlefield with area effect spells?

We both had our own personalities with our characters. I was a cold, calculating High Elf with a flair for the dramatic and a perchant for backstabbing other players in order to complete the mission. Ralf was a self-proclaimed magical master with an amazing set of items and powers to back up his claims.

Whenever we played together our characters would engage in back-and-forth banter about who was the more amazing spellcaster and many times we tried to prove it to each other; we even tried to kill each other when the opportunity presented itself.

We had internal conflict that generated an awesome roleplaying opportunity for us. And we did it with a massively complex system that offered us more options than a person could ask for.

In 4.0 the problem distills down to this:

Regardless of what I choose as for stats, a class, feats and skills I will still be "sterotyped" by the "Power Tree" that I select.

Now many people may like this limited form of play because it forces roleplaying towards the forefront but if not everyone is involved the game as a whole can suffer.

I've got three characters currently in the 4.0 system, one is nearly fifth level and I am playing a Ranger. I enjoy playing it but I become bored because while I do enjoy the roleplaying I attempt to inject in the games as a player and judge, it is the COMBATS that truly make me hate the system.

Instead of a plethora of combat possibilities (mainly made possible by the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Paladin) the 4.0 system severely restricted spellcasting and reduced many casters to secondary support. Many of the spells that could be used in/out of combat are gone and were great roleplay opportunities or story hooks to be used but no more. This new systme is truly "Hack-And-Slash" gaming. Even at higher levels it simply provides you with tougher monsters that deal more destructive damage while you increase in your number of dice as well.

I believe the main component that is missing is that feeling of unpredictability that came in 3.0/3.5 with the multitude of spells (and on this point I am speaking ONLY OF CORE SPELLS) that allowed for interesting variants in combat. It truly gave the spellcasting classes value and when their powers were used up it fell squarely on the shoulders of the fighting units to pick up the slack and fight on without arcane/divine support.

That is what turns me off from this game. Everyone heals, everyone has a special power, everyone can fight in combat. The survivability of characters has gone up with these improvements, but inthe process teamwork has dissolved and cookie-cutter characters are already emerging. That is doom of the 4.0 system, its simplicity leads to complacency and eventually repetition of ideas.

But that's what I believe, and just to prove I've got no hard feelings about the system once I finish the MegaCon episodes for blackmoor I will ATTEMPT a shot at a 4.0 module and ask you guys to try it and see what you think. I mean I've got the books I might as well give it a shot and see what you think right?
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Re: My Lament

Postby thetrickygnome » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:34 pm

When you attack Ramon for powergaming in the 3.5 system and claiming he knows nothing of roleplaying that is a major misteak.


Offering my honest opinion about what I have experience of Ramons play style is not attacking him
and I resent that implication so back off with that. My point was that Ramons style of play in 3.5 is
not as conducive as it would be in 4.0 because of the game changes and for some of the reasons I
mentioned I do not think that is entirely a bad thing. Nowhere in this do I "attack" Ramon for what
I believe is his style of play just as I would not percieve people saying that I play predominantly highly
heroic good guy PCs most of the time as an "attack" on my play style because I openly admit that this
characterization of my play style and choices is true. Try being sa little more careful with your words
when you are making blanket statements about people.

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Re: My Lament

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:34 pm

Rene,

Let me apologize for my choice of words, "attack" in its base sense was not meant to offend, or implicate, that you, or anyone else, had any intentions of that kind towards Ramon. Perhaps a better choice would have been "stereotype" when referring to what was happening on the boards. As South Florida is stereotyped for its "Power Gaming" so to are its individual members, that would have been the more accurate term.

Ramon is full of roleplaying ideas, the problem is that people only see the power gamer side of him.

They don't know the "Man Behind the Mechanics."

You do Rene, you've played with a multitude of his characters, you know he roleplays. Others however who have not played extensively with him do not see that side of him, especially with the downfall of Living Greyhawk and the scaling back of LA and DAB.
- Philip Slama

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"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: My Lament

Postby grey » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:11 pm

uhmm.... you know the game shouldn't be about power gaming or the number of magic items you have or how fast you can break the mod. (which by accident we broke a 4e mod already with kevin as our gm)

It should be about having fun with friends. I think it accomplishes that.
I also think that the designers were on to something when they went to a simpler ruleset. I'm thinking that 4e will have the biggest player base in the history of d&d. why? well because they have seen what wow has done. And they want to tap into that stream of revenue. I think it will do very well. whether you like it or not.
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Re: My Lament

Postby Dwraith » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:15 pm

One of the biggest things i like about 4E is that i can sit at a table and not worry that one person will dominate the table and make it a waste of my time to play. 3.5 biggest problem in my book is that they where alot of way to break things, and what did wizards or any other campaign do to help, they Banned stuff left and right. They Constanlly kept changing things because one person found an amazing trick that was hard to stop and people copied it, and in part kept breaking mods and encounters. I have been at tables with Ramon and a few others that could break a mod in two mins and make it pointless to enjoy to play. I would just sit there with nothing to do because they took complete control of the game at that point. If it ever happen that a mod was written with the same balance as what they players could do, people would bitch that it was designed to kill the party out right.

I like 4E because i make a diffrence in the game and not just make it a legal table to play. It about working as a team and not working by yourself.
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