Words to live by for LFR

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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby Dwraith » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:57 am

Now let the arguing continue.


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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby Ozymandius » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:27 pm

Uh, it's not that fact that several of us "hate" the system, we just find that it is extremely complicated to write within the system REGARDLESS of the fact that several of the base documents that provide help only further compound the situation. To write in the 4.0 system you must understand Monster Creation Guidelines, however these do not hold true in all situations and have no coherent rhyme or reason to them. Coming from a structured system of ELs from 3.5 to this deregulated 4.0 have caused problems for those of us to WANT to continue playing but are having trouble balancing new creations.

That is where the heart of much of this argument lies, in the balancing of the new system against the expectation of the players and their powers, ensuring that the players have fun. Both Rene and I have looked at Monster Creation and it does not hold true in all situation and they are extremely loose guidelines that only serve to confuse the author even more without providing a solid foundation from which an author could propose a solid and coherent story with challenges worthy of the players.

Ramon may simply not enjoy the system but those of us who are trying to understand these problems are finding it more difficult to adapt to the "lack-of-rules" in the system. Peter is fond of pointing out that you can create any power in 4.0 to suit your needs and while that is AWESOME it comes with problems for determining the power of the enemy, his minions and their types when pitted against the abilities of the players which are continuing to expand at a rapid rate with the constantly growing pool of material.

This is not a thread about "hating" 4.0, it is more a thread of trying to understand a system so that we can CONTINUE to provide challenges through.
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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby thetrickygnome » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:52 pm

Uh, it's not that fact that several of us "hate" the system, we just find that it is extremely complicated to write within the system REGARDLESS of the fact that several of the base documents that provide help only further compound the situation. To write in the 4.0 system you must understand Monster Creation Guidelines, however these do not hold true in all situations and have no coherent rhyme or reason to them. Coming from a structured system of ELs from 3.5 to this deregulated 4.0 have caused problems for those of us to WANT to continue playing but are having trouble balancing new creations.


Friggin true. The new system pf monster creation guidelines is a mess. If you are a player then it is
not too bad but if you are a person that wants to write for 4.0, it's a bucket load of crap.

That is where the heart of much of this argument lies, in the balancing of the new system against the expectation of the players and their powers, ensuring that the players have fun. Both Rene and I have looked at Monster Creation and it does not hold true in all situation and they are extremely loose guidelines that only serve to confuse the author even more without providing a solid foundation from which an author could propose a solid and coherent story with challenges worthy of the players.


The guidelines are too loose and many monsters in the Monster Manual do not even follow the rules set
out by the authors. That is pathetic game design mechanics. Again, I agree with this.

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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby grey » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:46 pm

hmmmmm..... I see a 4.5 ruleset coming out in a year.
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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby Ozymandius » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:47 pm

OMG Ramon I almost got in trouble here at work laughing at those examples.
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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:47 pm

WTF somebody gave PJ a job???!!!!!!
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Re: Words to live by for LFR

Postby Needles » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:22 pm

I don't think the idea is to make one monster awesome in 4E in an encounter at each level. I think the idea is to make an encounter with more monsters as you go up in level. In other words, if an encounter had five creatures to fight for a CR sixth level encounter, it would take on a fourth level party. For a sixth level party, add more creatures to the same encounter to make it a CR eighth level encounter. I think that is 4E thinking.

Fourth edition is not about on awesome creature to fight. It is about fighting more creatures in an encounter. The designers said over and over again that in 3.5 you fight one creature and one player gets hurt. For example, if a party fights a monster a few characters go at it then the monster rakes a player. The rest of the party goes then the monster rakes one player or the same player as before, and the rest of the players go at the monster. The monster dies and the encounter is over. Fights went like that all the time in 3.5. Now, the idea is to fight many monsters and have the same outcome.

It has been found that fighting many monsters are much more fun than fighting one monster. It is hard to fight seven different creatures in 3.5 due to the CR system it had. The Blackmoor writers would add monsters much under the CR of a monster just to add variety in an attack. That is what they thought of in 4E. Sorry for the long post. :D
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