Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Peewee » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:45 pm

Ozymandius wrote:While you may not have to pass the 4.0 certification I will not participate in any game where the judge has not completed the basic test. Prove you have passed the test and then I'll sit down and play but I'm not going to sit there and watch you learn the rules just because you didn't take the time to read through and take a simple test that covers the basics.

Besides, the new 4.0 system makes combat last longer and the modules are written in an "impromtu" type style where the judge is given "guidelines" and must be a tad more creative when running than people down here are used to.


ya combat takes too long, and its not because of the system it self.. its that PCs dont deal enough damage... I wish they would ramp up the damage characters are capable of somehow
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby grey » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:55 pm

thetrickygnome wrote:
aye aye. Tiefling warlord over here.
The game will be fun.... Rene should come over and play.
I need a hairy leg fix.


No thank you Albert. Three-fourths of your table I can deal with
but no way in hell I'll ever sit down at that table as a 5th person.
Now if you want to come and play with some of the people we played
with this past weekend, feel free to call Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami,, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, and set that up.
Besides, Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami,, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, plays a warlord and when he is not getting beaten to
a pulp or lying on the floor a bleeding unconscious mess, he's actually
moderately effective. ;)

I got one more mod to play with my Dragonborn paladin who is 2nd level
now and then I am switching to gnome rogue mode for 3 mods.

Signed- Rene' Alfonso

I understand.
Knowledge is power, Power corrupts, Study hard be evil.
Nobody's perfect... well, there was this one guy, but we killed him.

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Ozymandius » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Characters don't do enough damage?

Now I don't know what your characters are doing in their spare combat time but the group I'm with already has our statistical numbers down when it comes to damage.

The Ranger is dealing an average of 18.5 points a turn while the Rogue is dealing out 18 points on average. So we're looking at 36.5 points per turn just between these two players. We haven't even added the Paladin or the Cleric or the Warlord into the mix.

So if you figure the average bad guy has fifty (50) hit points at the High Tier during the first episodes it takes both the Ranger and the Rogue two complete rounds to kill one bad guy. Of course encounters usually have at least two-hundred (200) or more hit points in them give or take.

So based on the numbers above it would take just the two of us six rounds to deal about two-hundred (200) points of damage in the Encounter.

The real question is can we take the damage they deal to us? From what I've seen in the Monster Manual these are some hard-pipe hitting bastards in the 4.0 campaign and they deal the damage back to us with interest.
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Peewee » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:54 pm

you just said combat takes too long... there are two ways to speed that up 1) lower the HP of monsters or 2) up the damage of characters...

Simple....
Peter B
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby grey » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:09 pm

That time we played at SDS we were dishing out plenty of damage and took out those two statues with no problem.
I don't see how you can't have enough damage going on.
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby MorganWolf » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:53 pm

Listen to do the amount of damage you want to do; you must be able to HIT FIRST!! you know that the dice will not always be friendly and give you the numbers that you need, thereby increasing the rounds of combat and a better chance for stupid minions to kick your butt.
The table makeup matters also like in other editions, but in 4.0 if you have no area damage of any kind get ready to deal with things 1 on 1 like minions that have almost the same to-hit as the primary target and combat has just increased 3-fold.

Besides, Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami,, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, plays a warlord and when he is not getting beaten to
a pulp or lying on the floor a bleeding unconscious mess, he's actually
moderately effective.

That was just 1 mod otherwise of which we had no area attacks, do a mod without area attacks I dare you, I will run it for you or I will have KEVIN do it- choose your fate!!- hehe

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Peewee » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:31 pm

we pick KEVIN

we want to get the mod done ontime
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Griffman » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:24 pm

All of this bitching about the length of time combat takes surprises the hell out of me. After playing two modules in 4e I must say I felt the combats ran must faster than 3e or 3.5e. Yes the monsters have a ton of hit points. Yes the player's could do a little more damage to speed things along. All in all though the turns ran relatively quickly. Once player's and judges alike have a better grasp on the system I think everyone will see how quickly and efficiently these modules can be run through.
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Ozymandius » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:25 pm

Let me point out once more that the characters can do damage, and while Ralfph is free to claim the dice were against him, statistically speakinig he should be rolling an average number of 10 on his d20.

The combat in 4.0 is designed to be long, it is supposed to be "more epic" according to WotC. Well it isn't, it's just even more time consuming than before. But its funny as hell to watch people play in the system! Basically I wouldn't worry about the amount of time it takes to do a module.

First off, it you truly enjoy 4.0 you wouldn't be bitching about how long the mods are; regardless of who is running them. A good judge knows how to take a module and ensure that the players enjoy it even if the plot is thin, the combats ridiculous and the participants annoying as hell.

Really you should focus more on your roleplaying as the 4.0 modules are chocked full of the damn stuff. After finally reviewing the Preview modules it's ridiculous. Now that there is finally a system where you can roleplay (i.e. I'm talking to both you Peter and Adolfo) that you would condemn the system because of its combats.

The 4.0 system is almost like our homegame sessions that would go on for over twelve hours. We did what we wanted, interacted as we pleased and just tried to have fun. That's what we plan to do in the new 4.0 system. Why not? Hell, I'm enjoying these protracted combats, they have a real sense of "strategery" involved now instead of simply casting a Quickened Enlarged Forcecage and trapping the bad guy, or taking control of his body through a Dominate Person. No now we must fight on equal footing, and unfortunately, you guys don't like being on equal footing with the bad guys.

Villans and enemies who can go toe to toe with us are always bad news because they force us to come up with new and inventive ways to destroy them, utterly. But like I said, you either adapt or you get a judge to lowball your games for you.

I know what I'm going to do, I'm going to adapt and kick the sh*t out of these games playing the high tier every time. Otherwise I'm just wasting my time rolling dice.
- Philip Slama

"Sex is like the death penalty. One outcome, multiple ways to carry it out," -Stephen Colbert.

"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

Email: Finn_Durandall@Hotmail.com

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby thetrickygnome » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:30 pm

All of this bitching about the length of time combat takes surprises the hell out of me. After playing two modules in 4e I must say I felt the combats ran must faster than 3e or 3.5e. Yes the monsters have a ton of hit points. Yes the player's could do a little more damage to speed things along. All in all though the turns ran relatively quickly. Once player's and judges alike have a better grasp on the system I think everyone will see how quickly and efficiently these modules can be run through.


I played 2 games with Matts PC, a fellow paladin and I can tell you from experience he was absolutely
correct. The monsters had a ton of hit points and there were times when we thought that a TPK was
just one downed PC away from happening but we pulled thru by the skin of our teeth. I was standing
face to face with Matt against a guy that started the combat with over 200 hit points and I rolled a
natural 20 to crit him and finally put him down. Oh yeah, and I did it with 5 hit points left and no healing
ability left, be they powers or second wind. The thing is though and as Matt said, I noticed that as we
began to get more aclcimated with our powers and abilities that things did speed up. This is still a new
system and I know that as I get more used to my PC, I will play him faster, as will msot people. One
suggestion I would make is for people to photocopy their powers and put them on index cards and use
them this way. It's faster than constantly opening a book and requires less baggage.

Oh and Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, did hit the nail on the head with what he said about a balanced party and area of effect.
In 4.0, you really need a guy or two that can lay the beat down on the enemy from a distance and not
just with weapon attacks like a bow or sling. If you build a party where you constantly have to be in
the enemies face then I suggest you load up on healers and healing potions because you will get you
peepee demolished. Example - Remember that cakewalk chimera from 3.5 with the base 72 hit points?
Well in 4E, we welcome the new and improved "I will tear your balls off and wear them as earrings"
chimera with 366 hit points. Oh yeah, and he gets mutliple attacks in one round I think. He's so special.;)

Also, the better you are in tactics, the faster things will go. In 4E, this concept is much more prevalent
than in 3.5 because the teamwork idea is reinforced into the game. Try being a glory hound in 3.5 and take
on the world by yourself and you'll be taking a dirt nap in no time.

People kept saying "Oh well in 4.0 it's hard to die" and lsited a number of reasons for saying so. But at our
games I was very close to death once or twice, Ramon went down in a horrid series of attacks, Mario our
cleric went down once, and Ralph, The Godfather of DnD in Miami, was as close to death as I've seen anyone in 4E so far. So while one could
say that it's easier to regain hit points, the way the monsters are jacked up makes up for it. I mean, when
in 3.5 do 1st or 2nd level characters ever fight something that nas 200 hit points?

Signed- Rene' Alfonso

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby grey » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:45 pm

When we played we had a good table makeup.
2 fighters
1 cleric
1 warlord
1 rogue
1 wizard

to be honest we were laying the smack down quite nicely.
however i have noticed that in this edition, at least in my opinion, every class has a job to do.
And you are given the tools to do that job.
However if someone in the group isn't doing their job then everyone suffers.

that's just my opinion.
Knowledge is power, Power corrupts, Study hard be evil.
Nobody's perfect... well, there was this one guy, but we killed him.

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby thetrickygnome » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:35 pm

however i have noticed that in this edition, at least in my opinion, every class has a job to do.
And you are given the tools to do that job.
However if someone in the group isn't doing their job then everyone suffers.


Duane Johnson, aka "The Rock" former wrestler for the WWE and also known as the "Peoples Champion"
had an expression that went as follows..

"Know you're role and shut your mouth jabroni!!"

Well if 4ED D&D, I take that clearly to heart and I think so should everyone else. Everybody has a clearly
defined role and although they can be good at a few things, they nonethless are built for a primary role.
Chances are, as Albert said, if you try to assume a role you are not built for, go the gloryhound route, or
cannot grasp or refuse to grasp the concept of teamwork then chances are you are going to get beat down
badly and often or you are going to screw your party.

So yeah, like the Rock said - know your role and just do it. I play a tough as nails paladin who gets in
the face of the bad guys and lays the beat down when he can and has some healing and defensive
ability as well. However, my role is to defend my party by constantly delaing with the foe in close
proximity and absorbing punishment so that my allies don't have to and dishing it out so that my allies
don't get hurt. I am a frontline defender and at higher levels I can negate crits, absorb a hit on an ally,
teleport allies out of danger, and even raise the dead if I am not mistaken. All the while most often in my
foes face and trading melee attacks. I'm not good at ranged attacks but paladins are not built to be good
at it. That's not my role. That belongs to PCs like rangers, wizards, warlocks, or to some degree rogues.

Signed- Rene' Alfonso

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby Ozymandius » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:47 am

The 4.0 Edition is highly tactical and requires said teamwork as you noted previously Rene. The large pool of hit points afforded to the enemy is also of little concern however.

Most of the time in 3.5 and 3.0 we one-rounded combats or joked about doing them in less than a round; just in one player's six seconds. Now when faced with a system that brings protracted combat and forces the players to face permanent death every time they step into a module...well that's simply refreshing.

"Risk equals reward."

Surely this has been espoused on occasion, mainly by Greg Walker, and is used quite extensively in the episodes Terror Incorporated desgined. The fact there there is something to risk increases the enjoyment of the game.

I can wager good money in your example.

The fact that most of you were beat within an inch of your lives, fought impossible odds and still overcame th enemy must have tasted sweet at the conclusion of the fight. You proved who was the better group and there was no dispute. The doubt that nagged at your minds, would you survive, was washed clean away by the fact that you did; and survived.

Now contrast that with the games we have played previously. Where we go in knowing we have the advantage and destroy the field with one or two spells or we go into a situation knowing we are outmatched but because of our knowledge of the game, spells, rulings etc. we can turn that disadvantage into an edge and defeat even the most dangerous of enemies.

No, now with 4.0 you are going to experience near defeat with every encounter; survival of the characters will become the excitement. The challenge will be wrought by your ability to cope with new and more dangerous situations, no complaints afforded; that is until you are brought down, we are brought down.

Mark my words, the first TPK in this system will not be like those of 3.5 where we are screwed over intentionally (i.e. Hey, why are we fighting in an anti-magic field in this Sheldomar interactive?). No these TPKs will be because tactically we failed, or in the rare instance, we simply could not handle the damage. The way combat is designed and carried out makes sure that we all die.

It's just a question of when, how and why...
- Philip Slama

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"OMG I can't believe I just got censored on LC.net!!!111 IS ADOLFO SEEING THIS sh*t!!!" -TheWorldsGreatestWarrior.

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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby lostpike » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:10 am

The only problem I have is with skill challenges...they just feel as if they stop the flow of the game if you dont have a good dm to put them into context of Roleplaying.
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Re: Bitches My Ass Is CERTIFIED!

Postby grey » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:33 pm

PJ I don't know who you played with. But you should of played at the one table I played on.
We came in did what we had to do and left.
We used good tactics and guess what they worked well.
We didn't have anything close to a tpk.

oh and rene. i was looking at the paly. if you play the defensive paly with all the right skillls. you will be up in everyones face all day long and living to tell the tale.
Knowledge is power, Power corrupts, Study hard be evil.
Nobody's perfect... well, there was this one guy, but we killed him.

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