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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:32 pm

Lord Neden wrote: If I hit (which is a big if), then I get away because your grapple is foiled because I hit you with Terivel (+1 heavy mace). If I miss, you get to attempt a grapple on me (which would be very bad because I have no spells).


Sorry Ramon, I responded before you edited your thread. How does your getting a successful AOO stop the grapple attempt? Don't I just take damage, but still get my action?
It also depends on whether or not you have a weapon drawn, because if not, then what will you do?
And as for all your tricks, you're not getting another cert for the rest of your life, as long as I play at a table with you, because you apparently think you're powerful enough as it is. I let you get those slippers of spider climb that one time, because I felt sorry for the measly cleric with an 8 strength. :D
It also depends where we are when the fight breaks out. If we're indoors, I doubt Airwalk would be of much help.
Granted, I concede that there is a possibilty you may be able to beat me, but many things would have to fall you way, and it would probably take a long time. I think I can win the overwhelming majority of the time.
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:35 pm

Ozymandius wrote:I'm putting my money on Rene because he's simply got more power than you Ramon. You need protection while Rene needs none, except when he needs someone to speak for him. J/K.

His grapple is impressive indeed and should you cast all you succeed in doing is delaying the inevitable. Remember his character can dish out immense amounts of damage in a single blow.


Wow, PJ giving ME props?!? It must be Wacky Wednesday. :D

I actually prefer to not grapple, because then I get 3 attacks a round as opposed to 2 while grappling. I will only grapple against a dangerous spell caster, and only then because I want to deny him his most powerful weapon: spells. But I hardly consider Ramon a dangerous spellcaster. :D just kidding man. :D
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Postby Ozymandius » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:04 pm

Lord Neden wrote:Airwalk, beyond your reach. Then I cast Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other (familiar), Magic Vestment, Magic Vestment, Endurance, Bull Strength, Spikes, Divine Favor, Shield again, Hold Person, Hold Person, Hold Person, Sanctuary, and Divine Power and attack. During that whole time, I will use my domain spells to keep me up from your arrows (which I presume will hit me sometimes but not for much damage).


First you have to see if it is simply a verbal spell (Air Walk), if somatic you are sh*t out of luck.

Once I have my spells off and I have cast hold person 3 times on you from the sky, I will wait to see if you are held. Thats 3 saves you need to make or I win. If all three are made by you (which means you have a very good roll for will save). Then I cast sanctuary and move in. This will prevent you from cheeseballing any AOO or readied actions (because you will have to make another will save just to attack me until I attack you). Once I get within melee range, I will just attack you. And hit for hit, I do WAY more damage than you do with Spikes, Bullstrengthed, Divine Favored, and Divine Powered. My threat range is 19-20 to.. and when I crit, I do way more damage with you. Considering that one of your attacks per round is an offhand attack (your raging strength is only calculated once). Either way, once I see you raging, I will move out of combat, back into the sky. At that point, you shall be exhausted. I recast Divine Power and Shield and move in.


Raging is a free action and you will have no warning as to when he comes out since he will be free before you can get away, he can grapple you again.

This is why I say you will have a very hard time beating me one on one. If you go first, chances are you will pummel me to a bloody pulp. But you still have to go first. And I am assuming I have Absolutely no spells up (which means EVERYthing is in your favor).


He does have some insane back-ups in his favor. Take a stroll through his cert locker and his weapons are far and varied.

Oh and boyo.. remember I have a Tower Shield too.. 3.0 gives clerics Tower Shields so I can cast from behind my tower shield to prep in the sky while you are just doing nada.

We are both equal in level and equal in power, therefore I think that it will come down to who goes first.


Rene has a secret weapon since he is a devoted defender, I'm not sure if it would work, so let me check and get back to this thread, if it does work you'll wish you never got next to him.
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:10 pm

Lord Neden wrote:Airwalk, beyond your reach. Then I cast Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other (familiar), Magic Vestment, Magic Vestment, Endurance, Bull Strength, Spikes, Divine Favor, Shield again, Hold Person, Hold Person, Hold Person, Sanctuary, and Divine Power and attack. During that whole time, I will use my domain spells to keep me up from your arrows (which I presume will hit me sometimes but not for much damage).

Once I have my spells off and I have cast hold person 3 times on you from the sky, I will wait to see if you are held. Thats 3 saves you need to make or I win. If all three are made by you (which means you have a very good roll for will save). Then I cast sanctuary and move in. This will prevent you from cheeseballing any AOO or readied actions (because you will have to make another will save just to attack me until I attack you). Once I get within melee range, I will just attack you. And hit for hit, I do WAY more damage than you do with Spikes, Bullstrengthed, Divine Favored, and Divine Powered. My threat range is 19-20 to.. and when I crit, I do way more damage with you. Considering that one of your attacks per round is an offhand attack (your raging strength is only calculated once). Either way, once I see you raging, I will move out of combat, back into the sky. At that point, you shall be exhausted. I recast Divine Power and Shield and move in.

This is why I say you will have a very hard time beating me one on one. If you go first, chances are you will pummel me to a bloody pulp. But you still have to go first. And I am assuming I have Absolutely no spells up (which means EVERYthing is in your favor).

Oh and boyo.. remember I have a Tower Shield too.. 3.0 gives clerics Tower Shields so I can cast from behind my tower shield to prep in the sky while you are just doing nada.

We are both equal in level and equal in power, therefore I think that it will come down to who goes first.


That is rarely the spell compliment that you take. I have never seen you cast hold person, spikes, endurance, or magic vestment, but even if you have those spells I think I still win most of the time.
Granted, if I miss a will save on Hold person I am toast, But that is true FOR JUST ABOUT ANYONE in 3.0.
And I hope you're ready to take an attack each time you cast a spell, because that is what I will be doing, readying actions to nail your ass so you lose your spells. And I hope you don't think your measly 8 strength guy can get full cover from the tower shield he can barely hold up AND cast spells without at the very least making concentration checks. And how will domain spells keep you up? You can't convert those to cures.
And sanctuary won't stop my AOO or readied action, I just have to make a low save to attack you.
And you're casting Divine Power twice and Air Walk? How many 4th level spells do you get champ?
Even if all you say is accepted at true, which I do not btw, all I need is ONE little potion of Fly to wreck your day. How easy it is to foil you!
And what is this garbage that you will do WAY more damage than me? Dude I do 3d8 + 18 a round with my gladii, without any crits, if I hit all 3 times. If I use my Tralian hammer I do 4d8+ 20 a round, if I hit both times. I am not dependant on spells going off, or concentration checks either. I don't win only outdoors and I don't have to carry around spell components, and grapple doesn't own me. That ALWAYS applies to me in general.
Btw, I don't think Bull strength stacks with Divine power (they may both be enhancement bonuses, but I may be wrong in 3.0).
I don't think I will have a "VERY HARD TIME" beating you as you put it.
And even if you get off that crazy scenario you have devised that benefits ONLY you, I still think I can take you one on one, that is the funny thing.
Even if I realize you're beating me, I wll just use your trick and run around long enough for your spells to wear off, in which case you are toast. But you already knew that didn't you. :D

BTW, Ramon, I am truly enjoying this exchange, I hope you're not taking it too personally, because I have been known to irritate people here with my smack, but I think you know me well enouh to know better. :wink:
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:21 pm

Ozymandius wrote:Rene has a secret weapon since he is a devoted defender, I'm not sure if it would work, so let me check and get back to this thread, if it does work you'll wish you never got next to him.


Exactly man. You have to take into consideration that the FOCUS of my character is to protect others. I am not that much of an offensive fighter when you break it down. I am just good enough to beat your butt though Ramon. :wink:

I am not sure that what you are thinking will work PJ. I don't think I can BE MY OWN CHARGE if that is what you are suggesting. That would be sweet though. :D

Besides when conversion comes around I will likely take the Man At Arms PC. I haven't seen it but according to Peewee, The Stat Monkey God, its the LA equivalent of Devoted Defender, and since my concept has always been that I am an ex-legionaire, bodyguard for hire, it fits me well. I still have to check it out when it comes out, but it seems the way I will go.
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:25 pm

Lord Neden wrote:Greetings,

Rene H, if you get hit while making a grapple attack, your grapple automatically fails unless you have Improved Grapple. Which prevents that AOO.


Dude, you are still scarred. I get two attacks and you get one AOO. Two attacks means two grapple attempts. And if I go first you're flat footed and can't take an AOO. Either way, that equals a grappled, 8 strength, soon-to-be-dead, weak ass, elorii cleric zoo keeper. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Don't worry I will feed on all your animal companion friends so their deaths won't be in vain (I am a ranger you know). Elorii fillet, frog familiar salad, stew of skiz, spider monley brains, mmm mmm good. All the essential things a growing dark kin needs. :D

Signed, sealed, and delivered. <-- Sound like a cool name for a new LA mod huh? :D
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A few points I'd like to make

Postby thetrickygnome » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:59 pm

Well, this debate is a little freaky but I'll chime in about it anyways..

1) It is very unfair to compare the firepower of a spellcaster, who by
definition, uses magic, which is an alteration of reality itself, to a
pure fighter type because the deck is hideously stacked against the
fighter. Ex: 6ht level sorcerer vs. 6th level fighter. Sorcerer- I cast
fly, fireball twice, magic missle, scorching ray and for defense, I
put up a shield spell or mage armor, and maybe even a protection
from arrows. That's just wrong. Now if Raymonds PC were both
fighter types of equal level or a difference of 1 at the most, then it
would be a fair fight. This is not suggesting that Rene H. PC is weak-
not at all. But unles the scales are balanced, it is a mute point to
me.

2) It sounds like Henry is setting up some kind of battle arena idea
where those PCs who want to test their skills in comabt and prove
who is the mightiest of them all can do so. Kinda liek a mageduel
from LC but with an LA twist. This would be very cool because there
is alot of smack being talked on this board and by many other people
( granted it is friendly and in jest alot of the times which is okay by
me. ) who feel they are the best there is at what they do, as my good
friend Wolverine would say. I would imagine something like one of
the gladiatorial arenas in Sicaris, which is famous for stuff like that.
Wow, just thinking about it gives me goose bumps.

3) While we're on the subject of bad-ass fighter type PCs, pardon
my wee bit of ego but I gotta throw my PC Leatherback in the mix.
I have no spells to enhance myself but what I do have is a tail
attack that trips unless a Reflex save is made, and currently 5
attacks per round at 10th level ( which will become 6 attacks at level
11. ) Granted, I do not have as many hit points proportionately by
level as Rene H. ( barbarian levels with a d12 + a good Con make
him very tough ) but with 83 hit points, a good AC, and that many
attacks, I'd say I'm fairly tough. As for grapples, well, me being a
Ss'ressen caught in a grapple, I must thank the Fire Dragon for my
claws which are built in daggers and my 18 Strength. Unless you
sever my upper limbs, there will be no " disarming " of these weapons
and I can use them in a grapple without attacks of oppurtunity.

So toss my name in the hat of this Arena of Battle idea to prove who
is toughest of all. I'm ready to put some jack behind the smack I
talk. If this is your idea Henry, go for it. You will not regret it & you
will make MANY MANY LA fans even happier than they already are.

signed - Rene' Alfonso
aka- LEatherback Forktongue
Blade of the Fire DRagon
Loyal Protector of Milandir

" Some people pray for miracles. I fight to make them happen "
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Postby ParadigmPrez » Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:16 pm

Hello Rene',

So toss my name in the hat of this Arena of Battle idea to prove who is toughest of all. I'm ready to put some jack behind the smack I
talk. If this is your idea Henry, go for it. You will not regret it & you
will make MANY MANY LA fans even happier than they already are.


While I can't give away exactly what we have in mind, I can give you a preview of the introduction I wrote:

We, who are about to die, salute you!

The sands of the arenas strewn about Arcanis are soaked with the blood of gladiators, both exotic and mundane. Whether it be the small, but brutal coliseum of Sicaris, the jungle amphitheaters of Panari, the death-pits of Canceri or the mightiest arena of them all in Grand Coryan, they all have same things in common: the roar of the bloodthirsty mobs and the gory deaths that thrill them.

The most famous gladiators in history often began their careers as criminals or the unlucky driven unarmed into a line of gladius wielding warriors, somehow managing to survive long enough to pick up rock or fallen sword and hack their way through the lines, catching the eye of a wealthy gladiatorial stable owner. Others, fallen on hard times, turned to waging on their own success in the bloody stadiums. A few succeed in leaving the arenas whole and very wealthy. Most find themselves face down in the gore soaked sands, staring lifeless at an insatiable crowd that demands bloodier and even grander spectacles.

Whatever brought you here you have not only survived, but flourished and earned a burgeoning respect from your fellow gladiators and the crowd. No longer do you fight with a simple club and rags against slavering rabid dogs or wild-eyed men. You come to the small but ancient arena of Baktara with your weapon held high, saluting the master of the games, awaiting his signal to begin the struggle. Success here means earning a berth in the larger arena of Sicaris and from there, who knows? Perhaps even battling for the pleasure and honor of the Emperor of the Coryani Empire itself.

As you wait for the signal to be given you weigh the mood of the mob in the stands. Though still not a veteran of these games, you know enough to know that it is not a quick and efficient kill that these Hinterlanders want, but a great show full of suspense and enough death to satiate even Black Neroth Himself.

The roar of the crowd rises to a deafening crescendo as the master of the games announces with great fanfare, “Let the games begin!”. You only hope that the roars continue to be cheers lauding your victory and not cries for your blood.
Henry Lopez
President
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:24 pm

Wow, that sounds right up my Alley. Hopefully it will be a two on two, so I can make use of my Devoted Defender abilities. I'm still pretty good one on one, so I can't wait to test my mettle. Hopefully this won't result in real character deaths. But even if it does, what a way to go. In front of thousands. :D
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Postby Griffman » Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:41 pm

I would have to buff up Rene's character before he went into battle so that he can win and I can earn my money in the arena.... Or I would join him in battle but I don't think it would be worth my Nierites time. As for the Rene vs. Ramon battle arena thing, Ramon would loose by forfit. See when Ramon went to Winter Fantasy he used up the last of these things called TU's and without them he can't do crap. Also Rene the rest the baddies ganged up on you in the module is not because I wanted to kill your character(even though it was fun to see) it was because the module says they fight dirty ganging up on people and killing them when their down.
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Postby Ozymandius » Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:11 pm

Clearly me and my cohort would be in the Tag-Team Division, no one could beat us. My brains, her brawn, we are unstoppable!

Besides, the Bloody Sands of Sicaris aren't that tough... Been there done that... Hehehehehehehehehe...

You know, I wouldn't mind making my val'Mehan a bookie. For the Rene vs. Ramon fight I'm taking bets now.

So far it looks like Ramon is on top due to spell casting abilities.

So I'll give Rene a 3:1 against Ramon.

Chip in whatever Gold, Baht, or currency you deal in, yes we accept certs or blastpowder, remember all bets are done with Sarishan contracts to ensure the quality and legality of all bets within my bookie establishment. :D

You know, I could get used to this meta-gaming stuff...

Oh and it wouldn't work Rene, I thought you could take Ramon as your charge, and then switch places with him but then realized you can attack the charge.
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Postby TheWorldsGreatestWarrior » Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:04 pm

Matt: I suspected as much, although you're a tough DM, so I wasn;t sure if it was just you. In any case, that mod is some BIG evil. :evil:

PJ: Matt & I can take your diplomat and pansy bodyguard chick. No contest dude. I think either one of us could take you both by ourselves. :wink:
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Postby Ozymandius » Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:52 pm

Duh, I know that, that's while I'll send in my cohort on my behalf. I wouldn't mind being the agent of one of you guys.
- Philip Slama

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Postby Lerch » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:36 pm

All this prattle is beginning to waste bandwidth. I'm reminded by the quote that was written on the back of one of my table tents.

"Aprende tu lugar" which for us primarly english speaking players means
"know your role"

Therefore the fighters fight and the casters cast, the sneaks be sneaky, support characters support {and the bards do whatever they do... :lol: j/k}

At all times should we remember that this game is meant to be a team sport with everyone doing the best in what they do best. The name of the game is survival, being heroic, gaining wealth and fame....whatever your personal motivation is; but in the end it is the survival of your character that matters most....(in most cases). Good players take this to heart and Aprende tu lugar.




The gladatorial arena sounds interesting. I'll probably play a couple of characters...sounds like something that we could do as an interactive at a big con....have players in character bet on other players and have different levels of competition... Have a master maze arena (I don't know if anyone saw the setup that they had a gencon). And possibly give a "wooden gladius" to the winner of the tornement....there's lots of things that could be done with this. I'm interested too, now if we could just move on to something other than a "my character can beat your character" debate....
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Spikes Spell?

Postby GregSher » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:43 pm

Ramon,

Are you using the Spikes Spell to do that damage? Just thinking that it will not be used in the near future.

Greg


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